Economy safe in Tory hands

[Bob End and his Sexy Bitch]

Jesus, what a shower of shite. What a mess. Forecast to grow more slowly than Russia FFS. Only G7 nation who’s economy has shrunk.

[Bill Buxton]

Well it seems what you have to do to meet with IMF approval is to illegally invade a neighbouring state, lose 2000 tanks ,and god knows what else ,plus 188,000 soldiers in the process. In addition, have the world’s major economies impose crippling financial and economic sanctions on you. Do all,of this and that half wit super tanned Le Garde creature will give you a clean bill of health. Don’t make me laugh.

[kippers]

These cunts have been predicting the UKs downfall for years and guess what...theyve been wrong everytime with their guesstimates.

What this does highlight is the ruination of the UK economy is the left wings wet dream. 

[Bill Buxton]

Exactly. Their forecasts about the UK economy to date have been woeful. There is also an element of spite. They are ultra remainiacs and cannot forgive us for Brexit.

[Squarewheelbike]

Exactly. Their forecasts about the UK economy to date have been woeful. There is also an element of spite. They are ultra remainiacs and cannot forgive us for Brexit.

So it's still the fault of people who decided what was best for the economy, and the future of following generations. You Breximorons aren't ever going to admit you were utterly gulled by Boris and Nige and their ilk, into making them and their mates richer at your expense!

[Bill Buxton]

It’s called recognizing a democratic vote.  You would be more at home in North Korea. Try getting your head round the principle of losers consent.

[Squarewheelbike]

It’s called recognizing a democratic vote.  You would be more at home in North Korea. Try getting your head round the principle of losers consent.

They should have followed the Canadian model of the vote for independence in Quebec, 2/3's majority for what everyone knew would be a massive game changing decision. Now we have Farage coming out saying it's all Boris' fault!

[Bill Buxton]

You are either a democrat or you are not. It’s a simple choice. Accept the vote of the majority. If you don’t you are not only anti democratic,but a very bad loser.

[Rutters]

Finally they realise it wasn't an economic alliance but rather governance from an external organisation from which we need independence.

The penny's finally dropping.

[Bill Buxton]

As it says in a certain book. Some people have no hesitation in selling their birthright for a mess of pottage.

[Henry Chinaski]

If it's a democracy then we can change our mind and re-join, right?

Once it turns out to be the economic disaster many predicted. Like it is already.

It's very straightforward for me. Modern business depends on efficient supply chains so building a wall of regulations, bureaucracy, red tape and tariffs between you and your biggest trading partner is never going to benefit most UK companies. The tariffs & additional admin costs then get passed on to the consumer in higher prices

Angry pensioners reading the Daily Express in sheds probably don't see it like that

[Bill Buxton]

Bollocks. Ok you get to change your mind at the next Referendum.

[Rutters]

If it's a democracy then we can have another vote 5 years after re-joining, change our minds and re-leave, right?

How do you know it'll be an economic disaster?

That's why a FTD would benefit both sides but the EU would rather punish themselves (and us).

Angry Marxists reading The Guardian in Student Common Rooms probably don't see it like that.

[Henry Chinaski]

It already is an economic disaster, as I said (already). And we haven't even implemented all the obligations we agreed to yet (as they are even more self-harming)

Building a wall of red tape between yourself and your biggest trading partner is just a very bad idea. Seems you think that's the EUs fault for treating us as the 3rd party 'we' voted to become

[Rutters]

Before declaring it an 'economic disaster' wouldn't it be better to wait until we'd actually Brexited?

The red tape isn't our idea. One of the basic tenets of Brexit was to reduce the EU red tape. They appear to be able to trade with other non-EU countries with no problems. Wonder why it's just us?

[Bill Buxton]

What is it about sovereignty that these remainiacs hate so much? Isn’t that why Ukraine is fighting such a bloody war?

[Henry Chinaski]

All trade deals require sovereignty trade-offs Bill, that's how they work



It was a lie to pretend we could abandon our amazing deal with the EU and sign new deals with other countries without any sovereignty trade-offs

What is it about Brexiteers that makes them so all-or-nothing in their thinking?

[Rutters]

If the UK is part of the EU trading bloc and subject to the EU's jurisdiction then we have no sovereignty.

We currently have a trade deal with many countries without losing any sovereignty whatsoever.

Independent trade deals are the opposite of 'all-or-nothing'. They're 'give and take'.

That's why they're called 'deals'.

[Henry Chinaski]

If the UK is part of the EU trading bloc and subject to the EU's jurisdiction then we have no sovereignty.

We currently have a trade deal with many countries without losing any sovereignty whatsoever.

Independent trade deals are the opposite of 'all-or-nothing'. They're 'give and take'.

That's why they're called 'deals'.

You think a new trade deal doesn't involve any trade-offs in sovereignty? Of course it does e.g. we make a trade deal with India and they demand 500K more Visas for Indian Nationals to study or work in the UK.

We trade off some immigration control in return for greater access to something they have

Can't believe I'm having to explain this...



https://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/media-centre/house-of-lords-media-notices/2016/december-2016/post-brexit-options-for-trade-require-sovereignty-trade-offs-and-a-transitional-deal-says-lords-report/

[Bill Buxton]

You miss the point.We get to choose and sack our leaders. You don’t in the EU.

[Henry Chinaski]

You miss the point.We get to choose and sack our leaders. You don’t in the EU.

Nope. Every trade deal has trade-offs relating to immigration or protected industries like farming or fishing. Every trade deal involves two-way flexibility on matters formerly sovereign to the parties making the deal

Rutters claimed these deals involved no loss of sovereignty whatsoever, he was wrong. He seems to miss the point that a "give and take" trade deal is the same thing as a "trade-off", in this context

[Rutters]

We lose zero sovereignty if we allow India 500k visas as part of a Trade Agreement because we can decide whether to accept that deal or not...because we're a sovereign nation.

However if, when part of the EU, a deal was stuck stipulating that we must grant 500k visas to India then we have zero sovereignty. The sovereignty would lie with the EU.


sovereignty
/ˈsɒvr(ɪ)nti/

noun
supreme power or authority.
"the sovereignty of Parliament"

[Bob End and his Sexy Bitch]

In the whole of Christendom, our National Debt has risen to 1 trillion pound in 2010 when this party took power.

In the next 12 years it rose to 2.33 trillion pounds

We're in recession. Russia, at war, under sanctions, growing, poorly but growing.

I'm having the wildest guess that telling your biggest customer to fuck right off might, just might, be a bad idea.

'Oven ready'

'Sunlit uplands'

 

[Rutters]

Who told whom to 'fuck right off'? Everyone always said they wanted a FTA.

'House prices will plummet'

‘We’ll run out of medicine’

'Emergency Budget'

‘The banks will leave London’

‘Thousands of jobs will be lost’

[Henry Chinaski]

We lose zero sovereignty if we allow India 500k visas as part of a Trade Agreement because we can decide whether to accept that deal or not...because we're a sovereign nation.

However if, when part of the EU, a deal was stuck stipulating that we must grant 500k visas to India then we have zero sovereignty. The sovereignty would lie with the EU.


sovereignty
/ˈsɒvr(ɪ)nti/

noun
supreme power or authority.
"the sovereignty of Parliament"

If a sovereign power has a policy that excludes further immigration and it makes a deal with India to relax that requirement in a specific way, it has ceded some control over immigration to another sovereign power, in exchange for an equivalent trade-off

To cut to the chase, our deal with the EU required us to cede sovereignty in some areas (but not all) in exchange for tariff free access to the largest trading bloc in the world, and have freedom of movement in 27 EU countries, and have a veto...

It was the best deal anyone had. Without it we quickly return to being the sick man of Europe. The End

[kippers]

We lose zero sovereignty if we allow India 500k visas as part of a Trade Agreement because we can decide whether to accept that deal or not...because we're a sovereign nation.

However if, when part of the EU, a deal was stuck stipulating that we must grant 500k visas to India then we have zero sovereignty. The sovereignty would lie with the EU.


sovereignty
/ˈsɒvr(ɪ)nti/

noun
supreme power or authority.
"the sovereignty of Parliament"

I'll take 500,000 indians right now if it didnt undermine local salaries.  Grafters them lads and intelligent.
Bring the doctors, nurses, IT, engineers and financial guys.

[Bill Buxton]

By the way has anyone found the mythical teacher who uses food banks? Just asking.

[Rutters]

We lose zero sovereignty if we allow India 500k visas as part of a Trade Agreement because we can decide whether to accept that deal or not...because we're a sovereign nation.

However if, when part of the EU, a deal was stuck stipulating that we must grant 500k visas to India then we have zero sovereignty. The sovereignty would lie with the EU.


sovereignty
/ˈsɒvr(ɪ)nti/

noun
supreme power or authority.
"the sovereignty of Parliament"

If a sovereign power has a policy that excludes further immigration and it makes a deal with India to relax that requirement in a specific way, it has ceded some control over immigration to another sovereign power, in exchange for an equivalent trade-off

To cut to the chase, our deal with the EU required us to cede sovereignty in some areas (but not all) in exchange for tariff free access to the largest trading bloc in the world, and have freedom of movement in 27 EU countries, and have a veto...

It was the best deal anyone had. Without it we quickly return to being the sick man of Europe. The End

If a country decides to cede power then it cedes power because it has sovereignty to do so, ie sovereign.

People would rather rule themselves. If that eventually brings benefits or detriments, so be it.

Not the end, only the beginning.

[Bill Buxton]

You might as well cede all decision making to your next door neighbour regarding the running of your house.

[Henry Chinaski]

It's just the difference between joining a TRADING BLOC where no one nation has overall control vs doing hundreds of individual trade deals to retain some purist idea of "sovereignty"



Being a significant member of the world's largest trading bloc, with special additional privileges is so obviously better than having to do all those individual deals from scratch that still require trade-offs

Almost as if some very wealthy people wanted to avoid having their off-shore ill-gotten gains taxed by the EU, so set about trying to persuade enough useful idiots that we had to leave.'cos "sovereignty"

[Rutters]

'Sovereignty' is a purist notion. You either have it or you don't. I'd rather have it.

And if you think the EU is ran by working-class heroes, sticking it to 'the man' then you're sadly mistaken. In fact, it's very wealthy people who control it.

Who are the useful idiots again?

[Henry Chinaski]

I'll be fine mate. Got myself an EU passport like Rees Mogg and most of the Vote Leave/ERG 'elite'

[Rutters]

Please don't go mate. We need true patriots like you to help re-build our great, sovereign nation 

[MF(c) DOOM]

I quite liked what Nigel Farage said last week, "Brexit has given us the sovereignty to make a mighty mess of things, and that is what we seem to be doing"

[Bill Buxton]

Yes but WE get the right to make our own mess rather than an EU one imposed upon us.

[MF(c) DOOM]

I think the Sovereignty issue is a bogus argument whipped up by Brexit supporting media. Look at the countries in the EU. You wont find a more fiercely proud and awkwardly independent nation France.  Croatia and Netherlands s well are really strong and proud patriots. They don't see the EU membership as a threat to sovereignty.


If you join a club or a trade alliance you have to have some alignment of rules so that members cant go rogue and try and stiff other members. That will also apply to any trade deals we seal outside of the EU, there will be some insistence on synchronised standards. The vast majority of these laws, these horrendous impositions on our sovereignty are actually benign regulations relating to workplaces, weights and measures. health and safety.  The UK had a seat at the table in forming these rules, a very influential seat, they were rules we wanted so its a misrepresentation to say they were imposed on us, we wanted them we created them. You think that now we are outside of the EU we are going allow scaffolding made of bamboo or force people to work 16 hour shifts every day.  In many cases its the way the UK enacts EU Guidance is the issue, you only have to walk past a Spanish building site to see how different countries can differently interpret and enforce EU guidance documents.

Its like the ECHR which the EU gets blamed for even though it isn't an EU convention, it was pretty much drafted by UK lawyers and based on the English bill of Rights but we are now encouraged to see it as an alien imposition by the bullying EU which prevents our government from stripping us off long established freedoms and liberties


We don't have that seat at the table of the most powerful trading block in the world so we will have less influence, rather than increasing sovereignty we will find ourselves having to give more away as we try and deal with more powerful countries and trading blocks

Most people knew Brexit would affect us hard economically, even the governments own forecasts was predicting it would make the country 3 to 4 % poorer. Only a few fanatics like Boris and Nigel were outlandish enough to predict sunny uplands. I think the economic indicators are clear that Brexit has hurt Britain and ill continue to hurt us. Brexiteers wont accept that, they will say say our current woes are Covid and Ukraine related but the other G7 and EU countries have had all that as well yet they are bouncing back we are not.

I'm not for re-joining at the moment, couldn't be bothered with splitting the country and all that divisiveness again but I said when we left that in 10 to 20 years we will be begging to re-join and we will be a much poorer and  diminished nation, and that we will re-join forgoing the privileges we had like being able to stay out of the Euro. I remain convinced that will still happen. When we voted for Brexit we were the 4th strongest economy of the G7. Brexit will see us slide down that table with France overtaking us very soon and then maybe even Italy which was regarded as a basket case. As that happens and there is a mass realisation that things were better as they were there will be another referendum or re-joining will go in the major parties manifestos

[Rutters]

Unlike those other countries, we're an island. We've never had that feeling of being part of a European community because we're detached from them.

If I joined Dorman's Club I wouldn't expect them to be able to tell me what I can do in my own home, even though I'd benefit from the low-priced beer which they can source cheaper than me because of economies of scale.

Just because we established something doesn't mean our requirements can't change and the laws governing those requirements can't change either.

The EU always saw us as the 'black sheep' who would have to be dragged along kicking and screaming. Sometimes it's better to be small and agile than a resentful cog in a big wheel. Just look at Singapore. They're successful because they're nimble and can adapt to change course quickly to suit a dynamic economic environment. Rather than a slow and cumbersome monolith that turns like a supertanker.

Sovereignty allow us to choose what we want to do.

Economics is cyclical. Everybody knows that. Sometimes you'll be at the top of a list (like us last year), sometimes the bottom (like us this year). Everybody knew the risk but decided to take it so we could govern ourselves and remove the leaders we didn't want. Some people like Tony Benn, Jeremy Corbyn and Mick Lynch realised the EU was just an undemocratic, ultra-capitalist luncheon club. Some fanatics like Femi and Gina Miller were willing to dump on democracy and make us stay.

Predictions are unpredictable. Anything could happen. If Italy does well and Germany continues to fail people might see the future as being politically independent nations within a regulated purely economic trading bloc. You know, as it was initially established to be.

If the EU was just as economic amalgamations of similarly prosperous countries without all the Parliamentation, over-bearing governance, boarder busting and bureaucracy.. Brexit wouldn't have been on the agenda.

[Rutters]

btw Isn't it nice to be able to discuss it without some bigoted Marxist screaming 'Racist!' at you and shutting down your opinion because it doesn't suit their ideology.

[Bill Buxton]

I think the Sovereignty issue is a bogus argument whipped up by Brexit supporting media. Look at the countries in the EU. You wont find a more fiercely proud and awkwardly independent nation France.  Croatia and Netherlands s well are really strong and proud patriots. They don't see the EU membership as a threat to sovereignty.


If you join a club or a trade alliance you have to have some alignment of rules so that members cant go rogue and try and stiff other members. That will also apply to any trade deals we seal outside of the EU, there will be some insistence on synchronised standards. The vast majority of these laws, these horrendous impositions on our sovereignty are actually benign regulations relating to workplaces, weights and measures. health and safety.  The UK had a seat at the table in forming these rules, a very influential seat, they were rules we wanted so its a misrepresentation to say they were imposed on us, we wanted them we created them. You think that now we are outside of the EU we are going allow scaffolding made of bamboo or force people to work 16 hour shifts every day.  In many cases its the way the UK enacts EU Guidance is the issue, you only have to walk past a Spanish building site to see how different countries can differently interpret and enforce EU guidance documents.

Its like the ECHR which the EU gets blamed for even though it isn't an EU convention, it was pretty much drafted by UK lawyers and based on the English bill of Rights but we are now encouraged to see it as an alien imposition by the bullying EU which prevents our government from stripping us off long established freedoms and liberties


We don't have that seat at the table of the most powerful trading block in the world so we will have less influence, rather than increasing sovereignty we will find ourselves having to give more away as we try and deal with more powerful countries and trading blocks

Most people knew Brexit would affect us hard economically, even the governments own forecasts was predicting it would make the country 3 to 4 % poorer. Only a few fanatics like Boris and Nigel were outlandish enough to predict sunny uplands. I think the economic indicators are clear that Brexit has hurt Britain and ill continue to hurt us. Brexiteers wont accept that, they will say say our current woes are Covid and Ukraine related but the other G7 and EU countries have had all that as well yet they are bouncing back we are not.

I'm not for re-joining at the moment, couldn't be bothered with splitting the country and all that divisiveness again but I said when we left that in 10 to 20 years we will be begging to re-join and we will be a much poorer and  diminished nation, and that we will re-join forgoing the privileges we had like being able to stay out of the Euro. I remain convinced that will still happen. When we voted for Brexit we were the 4th strongest economy of the G7. Brexit will see us slide down that table with France overtaking us very soon and then maybe even Italy which was regarded as a basket case. As that happens and there is a mass realisation that things were better as they were there will be another referendum or re-joining will go in the major parties manifestos

You still don’t get it do you? I voted Brexit ( and still will), solely on the principle of the sovereignty of the nation state. I want all the laws I have to follow,made by the people the British electorate put into power. I wasn’t bothered about any other argument. The EU overrides this principle. It is anti democratic. The E U parliament is a sham. Unelected and faceless bureaucrats run the EU and they are not accountable to me. The crap we currently have running this country are ultimately accountable to me and the rest of the electorate.

[Henry Chinaski]

I think the Sovereignty issue is a bogus argument whipped up by Brexit supporting media. Look at the countries in the EU. You wont find a more fiercely proud and awkwardly independent nation France.  Croatia and Netherlands s well are really strong and proud patriots. They don't see the EU membership as a threat to sovereignty.


If you join a club or a trade alliance you have to have some alignment of rules so that members cant go rogue and try and stiff other members. That will also apply to any trade deals we seal outside of the EU, there will be some insistence on synchronised standards. The vast majority of these laws, these horrendous impositions on our sovereignty are actually benign regulations relating to workplaces, weights and measures. health and safety.  The UK had a seat at the table in forming these rules, a very influential seat, they were rules we wanted so its a misrepresentation to say they were imposed on us, we wanted them we created them.

You are right, but this "all-or-nothing" illusion of absolute sovereignty is all they've got left to cling to, since it cannot be defended on economic grounds

[Bill Buxton]

Why does it need to be defended on economic grounds ? It’s a principle. Would you support a totalitarian regime if it made you better off than an open and democratic society?

[Rutters]

Economics and sovereignty are two entirely different concepts. Sovereignty can't be defended on economic grounds, neither can it be opposed.

Sovereignty is like pregnancy... You can't be partly either.

Millions of men have died protecting us from foreign rule, now some people want to give it away.

We've even got the perverse situation of a Scottish National Socialist Party wanting to take back sovereignty so that they can give it to someone else!

[Bill Buxton]

Sovereignty is all or nothing.

[Henry Chinaski]

Why does it need to be defended on economic grounds ? It’s a principle. Would you support a totalitarian regime if it made you better off than an open and democratic society?

BREXIT cannot be defended on Economic grounds, so suddenly it was all about Sovereignty in the first place

How many people who voted to leave knew they were voting for economic self-harm on the basis of a principle?

[Bill Buxton]

Will you Remainers never give up? We've had the biggest democratic vote in our history.  It's over we are not rejoining the dodgy and failing EU. Thanks to Brexit the UK was quick to step up to the plate regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Left to the EU Russia would now be in control of Ukraine. An alliance of sovereign nations such as NATO was the only language Putin will understand. Otherwise his mates in the German Chancellery and Brussels would have just looked the other way.

[kippers]

How is the EU economy doing ?

[Bill Buxton]

30% youth unemployment in the Eurozone.

[MF(c) DOOM]

Will you Remainers never give up? We've had the biggest democratic vote in our history.  It's over we are not rejoining the dodgy and failing EU. Thanks to Brexit the UK was quick to step up to the plate regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Left to the EU Russia would now be in control of Ukraine. An alliance of sovereign nations such as NATO was the only language Putin will understand. Otherwise his mates in the German Chancellery and Brussels would have just looked the other way.

What utter nonsense

[MF(c) DOOM]

I think the Sovereignty issue is a bogus argument whipped up by Brexit supporting media. Look at the countries in the EU. You wont find a more fiercely proud and awkwardly independent nation France.  Croatia and Netherlands s well are really strong and proud patriots. They don't see the EU membership as a threat to sovereignty.


If you join a club or a trade alliance you have to have some alignment of rules so that members cant go rogue and try and stiff other members. That will also apply to any trade deals we seal outside of the EU, there will be some insistence on synchronised standards. The vast majority of these laws, these horrendous impositions on our sovereignty are actually benign regulations relating to workplaces, weights and measures. health and safety.  The UK had a seat at the table in forming these rules, a very influential seat, they were rules we wanted so its a misrepresentation to say they were imposed on us, we wanted them we created them. You think that now we are outside of the EU we are going allow scaffolding made of bamboo or force people to work 16 hour shifts every day.  In many cases its the way the UK enacts EU Guidance is the issue, you only have to walk past a Spanish building site to see how different countries can differently interpret and enforce EU guidance documents.

Its like the ECHR which the EU gets blamed for even though it isn't an EU convention, it was pretty much drafted by UK lawyers and based on the English bill of Rights but we are now encouraged to see it as an alien imposition by the bullying EU which prevents our government from stripping us off long established freedoms and liberties


We don't have that seat at the table of the most powerful trading block in the world so we will have less influence, rather than increasing sovereignty we will find ourselves having to give more away as we try and deal with more powerful countries and trading blocks

Most people knew Brexit would affect us hard economically, even the governments own forecasts was predicting it would make the country 3 to 4 % poorer. Only a few fanatics like Boris and Nigel were outlandish enough to predict sunny uplands. I think the economic indicators are clear that Brexit has hurt Britain and ill continue to hurt us. Brexiteers wont accept that, they will say say our current woes are Covid and Ukraine related but the other G7 and EU countries have had all that as well yet they are bouncing back we are not.

I'm not for re-joining at the moment, couldn't be bothered with splitting the country and all that divisiveness again but I said when we left that in 10 to 20 years we will be begging to re-join and we will be a much poorer and  diminished nation, and that we will re-join forgoing the privileges we had like being able to stay out of the Euro. I remain convinced that will still happen. When we voted for Brexit we were the 4th strongest economy of the G7. Brexit will see us slide down that table with France overtaking us very soon and then maybe even Italy which was regarded as a basket case. As that happens and there is a mass realisation that things were better as they were there will be another referendum or re-joining will go in the major parties manifestos

You still don’t get it do you? I voted Brexit ( and still will), solely on the principle of the sovereignty of the nation state. I want all the laws I have to follow,made by the people the British electorate put into power. I wasn’t bothered about any other argument. The EU overrides this principle. It is anti democratic. The E U parliament is a sham. Unelected and faceless bureaucrats run the EU and they are not accountable to me. The crap we currently have running this country are ultimately accountable to me and the rest of the electorate.

How do you feel about the House of Lords?

[Bill Buxton]

What do I feel about the House of Lords? Simple. It should be abolished.