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Author Topic: Why are so many still in denial about why Labour lost the election  (Read 582 times)
BarnesBoroFC
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« on: February 12, 2020, 06:01:44 AM »

Whilst I understand Corbyn's manifesto might not appeal to the traditional workclass vote, I keep hearing this refrain, that the primary reason they lost the election was down to Corbyn and the media. And wasn't down to ignoring the Brexit vote in the traditional labour heartlands, like our own.
 souey

I was at an international conference at the weekend where my friend and presenter (who is a New Labour Remain voter) was answering questions from American academics about neoliberalism in academia. My jaw hit the floor when he segwayed into his thoughts on the outcome of the last election, and proceeded to inform the international audience why Labour's progressive (=good) manifesto was rejected by the working class,
 especially those in the traditional labour seats. 

His view was that neoliberalism has brain washed the working class into voting against their own interests, and the other big reason they didn't embrace Labour's anti-neoliberal manifesto was due to Corbyn (and the media smear campaign). He even gave an anecdote that his friends who canvassed for the labour party back home (Nottingham) were told on the door step that traditional labour voters didn't like Corbyn as leader and so would be voting Tory (the neoliberal party as he put it). Not a word on Brexit...
 

I put it to him and the others in a small group discussion after the presentation, that we cannot ignore the strength of feeling over Brexit, and that given the EU is an exercise in neoliberal governance, that it could be argued that the Brexit vote was a rejection of neoliberalism by the working class. So it wasn't as simple as saying Tory are the neoliberal party, and the progressive party of Labour are the anti-neoliberal party. I think the response from the openly progressive Americans could best described as "getting the cold shoulder"
 :grace:

Is this a thing now, are we going to pretend that as bad as Corbyn may have been for some, that Brexit wasn't the primary issue of the last election?
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2020, 08:36:53 AM »

Problem for the Labour party is they think Brexit was the only issue, which is why they are all posturing as "continuity Corbyn". They need to weed out the loonies, the anti-semites and the plain idiotic and start from scratch, as a start.
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 08:40:42 AM »

Same reason people are still in denial about Brexit.

The good folk of the left have grown up not only believing they are right but that they are morally and ethically superior and decisions by the electorate that refutes their desires can only be caused by a fraud, a cheat or a mistake.

The same thing is true of the Democrats in the US.

The left can never accept that it might be wrong.

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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2020, 09:57:20 AM »

Brexit wasn't a cause...it was a vehicle.

It was a means of reaching the ultimate destination.
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DowningAlbion
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2020, 10:16:15 AM »

You are 100% right Barnes, Brexit was the main cause and Labour made a massive error in agreeing to a Brexit based election without a clear position themselves

However, prior to that they were correct in doing everything they could to oppose a catastrophic no deal exit.
The right-wing press span that as Parliament opposing the will of the people when in fact they were acting in the best interests of the country. So the trap of a Parliament vs People election was set, and they walked into it...

The No-Deal exit that is now back on will be a catastrophe for many people. Brexit has been achieved by lies and deception on a massive scale. Hopefully people will wake up to the lies as the catastrophe unfolds, but I am not optimistic
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2020, 11:41:26 AM »

Well I would think now for better or worse the people are more engaged in politics. If people want to elect a more socialist government next time round so be it.

I'm curious about arguments for keeping the left together. By moving labour to the middle ground they would naturally pull in votes from the left.  By surrendering the middle ground they leave it open to the conservatives.

It would make more sense to me to keep the moderate New Labour, and form another party, let's call it momentum, to attract the vote of those further to the left with a progressive agenda.

Would it be an impossibility to form a government as a coalition of the left? Though it might be difficult to push through radical change with multiple stakeholders.
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Jimmy Cooper
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2020, 12:42:30 PM »

You are 100% right Barnes, Brexit was the main cause and Labour made a massive error in agreeing to a Brexit based election without a clear position themselves

However, prior to that they were correct in doing everything they could to oppose a catastrophic no deal exit.
The right-wing press span that as Parliament opposing the will of the people when in fact they were acting in the best interests of the country. So the trap of a Parliament vs People election was set, and they walked into it...

The No-Deal exit that is now back on will be a catastrophe for many people. Brexit has been achieved by lies and deception on a massive scale. Hopefully people will wake up to the lies as the catastrophe unfolds, but I am not optimistic
  souey
what was project fear then. :wanker:
labour lost because of their ridiculous policies and the credibility of corbyn and that whole momentum student politics stance.

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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2020, 02:43:44 PM »

Shxte Leader
Shxte Shadow Cabinet
Shxte and useless Labour MPs
Shxte position vis a vis Brexit
Economic Policy of the madhouse
Coupled with woke,virtue signalling non patriotism
Finally holding their traditional support base in utter contempt.
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Bernie
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2020, 02:56:44 PM »


Look at the state of them. If someone says they believe that woman have tits and a quim and blokes have a cock, they could be kicked out of the party. That's what they have come to in 2020.

"The non binary community"....FFS..... souey :meltdown:


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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2020, 04:43:11 PM »

2016 - 2019: "Racists, Nazis, knuckledraggers, thick, council house dwellers, lazy,...." 

Day after results: "Hey, why's no one voting for us?" 

 
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2020, 04:53:34 PM »

2016 - 2019: "Racists, Nazis, knuckledraggers, thick, council house dwellers, lazy,...." 

Day after results: "Hey, why's no one voting for us?" 

 
:matty:
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2020, 06:26:31 PM »

You can guarantee Downing Albion would try and deconstruct the whole thing to a simple rant about the right wing press. It's the only argument he has.
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2020, 08:47:37 PM »

You can guarantee Downing Albion would try and deconstruct the whole thing to a simple rant about the right wing press. It's the only argument he has.

Can you imagine some 'gammon' sat in his 'white van' reading the political articles in the Sun? No, me neither.

They just can't hold their jazz hands up for anythin.

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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2020, 08:51:18 PM »

2016 - 2019: "Racists, Nazis, knuckledraggers, thick, council house dwellers, lazy,...." 

Day after results: "Hey, why's no one voting for us?" 

 

This  :like:
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2020, 08:59:02 PM »

You can guarantee Downing Albion would try and deconstruct the whole thing to a simple rant about the right wing press. It's the only argument he has.


Of course it's all bollocks, the right wing press is The Sun, the Daily Mail and the Times/Express but they are equal in circulation to The Metro, The Evening Standard, The Mirror, The I and The Guardian.
TV is entirely the bastion of the left wing with Sky, The BBC, ITV and Channel 4 all being variable degrees of left leaning and all anti Brexit.

Blaming the media is pathetic, but then being a pathetic hypocritical cunt is a key requirement of being part of the political left.




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Jimmy Cooper
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2020, 09:07:49 PM »

You can guarantee Downing Albion would try and deconstruct the whole thing to a simple rant about the right wing press. It's the only argument he has.


Of course it's all bollocks, the right wing press is The Sun, the Daily Mail and the Times/Express but they are equal in circulation to The Metro, The Evening Standard, The Mirror, The I and The Guardian.
TV is entirely the bastion of the left wing with Sky, The BBC, ITV and Channel 4 all being variable degrees of left leaning and all anti Brexit.

Blaming the media is pathetic, but then being a pathetic hypocritical cunt is a key requirement of being part of the political left.





bbc and c4 maybe, but sky, rava
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2020, 10:33:16 PM »

they were and still are just a protest party whilst that tramp is in charge. look at them kicking off cos a load of foreign nationals are repatriated who are absolute scum of the earth.  Labour support losers nd not your average joe
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2020, 10:49:52 PM »

You can guarantee Downing Albion would try and deconstruct the whole thing to a simple rant about the right wing press. It's the only argument he has.


Of course it's all bollocks, the right wing press is The Sun, the Daily Mail and the Times/Express but they are equal in circulation to The Metro, The Evening Standard, The Mirror, The I and The Guardian.
TV is entirely the bastion of the left wing with Sky, The BBC, ITV and Channel 4 all being variable degrees of left leaning and all anti Brexit.

Blaming the media is pathetic, but then being a pathetic hypocritical cunt is a key requirement of being part of the political left.






Mentioned the same many times before on here. The obsession these Lefty losers have with the Daily Mail, in particular, is quite bizarre?!?!

Why can't they just accept the fact that many of us wanted out of the EU because we were being RIPPED OFF. Plain & simple.
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2020, 11:09:14 PM »

I'm convinced this left right mentality has gone full circle when it comes to kickin off. The violence from the left is not only backed by most of our media but also by the police(or their uppers). Old skool miners V Antifa should be fun 
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2020, 08:57:58 AM »

You can guarantee Downing Albion would try and deconstruct the whole thing to a simple rant about the right wing press. It's the only argument he has.


Of course it's all bollocks, the right wing press is The Sun, the Daily Mail and the Times/Express but they are equal in circulation to The Metro, The Evening Standard, The Mirror, The I and The Guardian.
TV is entirely the bastion of the left wing with Sky, The BBC, ITV and Channel 4 all being variable degrees of left leaning and all anti Brexit.

Blaming the media is pathetic, but then being a pathetic hypocritical cunt is a key requirement of being part of the political left.





bbc and c4 maybe, but sky, rava

Sky are one of the worst, you can't watch Sky news or Sky Sports news and tell me that there isn't a left wing bias.

Every other story is about equality, racism or how bad Brexit is.

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DowningAlbion
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2020, 10:09:11 AM »

Wow, a load of people lacking basic comprehension answering the point they hoped I'd made rather than the actual point. souey

All I said was the right-wing press were are able to spin Parliament's opposition to a No Deal Brexit (pre-election) as defying the will of the people, when it was actually acting in the best interests of the country. A valid opinion based on the facts...If you think I was saying all of the press are right-wing you are mistaken

Please try understanding the point then let me know what you think is untrue about it klins
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« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2020, 10:23:46 AM »

Wow, a load of people lacking basic comprehension answering the point they hoped I'd made rather than the actual point. souey

All I said was the right-wing press were are able to spin Parliament's opposition to a No Deal Brexit (pre-election) as defying the will of the people, when it was actually acting in the best interests of the country. A valid opinion based on the facts...If you think I was saying all of the press are right-wing you are mistaken

Please try understanding the point then let me know what you think is untrue about it klins
What a arrogant patronising post, so you are saying a generel election result can be overturned if the winning party is “ not in the interests of the country “. Of course politicians know better than the electorate when the result doesn’t suit them.You’re the archetype remainer who knows best despite what people want.
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DowningAlbion
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« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2020, 10:31:08 AM »

What a arrogant patronising post, so you are saying a generel election result can be overturned if the winning party is “ not in the interests of the country “. Of course politicians know better than the electorate when the result doesn’t suit them.You’re the archetype remainer who knows best despite what people want.

Again, I wasn't talking about the election result at all I clearly said "pre-election",  when the opposition parties were united in blocking the governments attempts to force through No Deal. They were acting in the best interests of the country as they are required to do as MP's, that is their primary responsibility
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2020, 10:55:39 AM »

What a arrogant patronising post, so you are saying a generel election result can be overturned if the winning party is “ not in the interests of the country “. Of course politicians know better than the electorate when the result doesn’t suit them.You’re the archetype remainer who knows best despite what people want.

Again, I wasn't talking about the election result at all I clearly said "pre-election",  when the opposition parties were united in blocking the governments attempts to force through No Deal. They were acting in the best interests of the country as they are required to do as MP's, that is their primary responsibility

Further proof of the issue with basic comprehension on here. No wonder you are so easily persuaded to vote in the best interests of the super-wealthy if you struggle with English comprehension
They are mandated to act in the best interests of the country on a democratic vote.They are not there to block it, it seems you struggle with the concept of voting. It was clearly an attempt at to slow /stop brexitWe had a supposedly unbiased speaker in the house being partisan.. No deal was always an option for leaving, seems you can't comprehend that.Voting leave was not playing in to the hands of any section of society that's just your uniformed opinion based on your political leanings
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2020, 12:30:17 PM »


They are mandated to act in the best interests of the country on a democratic vote.They are not there to block it, it seems you struggle with the concept of voting...

Wrong again Jimmy - From MP's code of conduct: "Members have a general duty to act in the interests of the nation as a whole". It is a general duty, that means in all matters

That is why the Referendum result was supposed to be advisory only, to allow Parliament to decide on the best outcome for the country. So prior to the election when the opposition MP's came together to block a no deal that would be catastrophic for the country, they were performing their primary duty as MP's. They were not seeking to frustrate the will of the people or acting against democracy. They were acting as required, but the right-wing elements of press were able to spin it as "People vs Parliament" and the gullible lapped it up

It wasn't neo-liberalism (per OP's friend) that persuaded enough people to vote against their own interests and for the interests of the super-rich, it was the 80% of MSM that is controlled by non-resident billionaires and Social Media manipulation by the likes of Cambridge Analytica
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2020, 12:50:50 PM »


They are mandated to act in the best interests of the country on a democratic vote.They are not there to block it, it seems you struggle with the concept of voting...

Wrong again Jimmy - From MP's code of conduct: "Members have a general duty to act in the interests of the nation as a whole". It is a general duty, that means in all matters

That is why the Referendum result was supposed to be advisory only, to allow Parliament to decide on the best outcome for the country. So prior to the election when the opposition MP's came together to block a no deal that would be catastrophic for the country, they were performing their primary duty as MP's. They were not seeking to frustrate the will of the people or acting against democracy. They were acting as required, but the right-wing elements of press were able to spin it as "People vs Parliament" and the gullible lapped it up

It wasn't neo-liberalism (per OP's friend) that persuaded enough people to vote against their own interests and for the interests of the super-rich, it was the 80% of MSM that is controlled by non-resident billionaires and Social Media manipulation by the likes of Cambridge Analytica
all you are offering is opinion based on your own bias,just like our MP'S. the future is unwritten, hindsight s more accurate than foresight.
If you think mp's are more knowledgeable because they are mp's you're deluded,read Chris Mullins diaries from his time as an MP, their stupidity is shocking.
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2020, 01:08:38 PM »

Well it's actually a fact about an MP's primary responsibility, but fair enough it is my opinion that people are being deceived into voting in the best interests of the super-rich based on the evidence I have read and trusted

:pope2:
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2020, 01:17:42 PM »

"best interests of the super-rich"
"reading comprehension"
"best interests of the super-rich"
"reading comprehension"
"best interests of the super-rich"
"reading comprehension"
"best interests of the super-rich"
"reading comprehension"

towz mkII's record is stuck  rava
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2020, 01:29:08 PM »

Well it's actually a fact about an MP's primary responsibility, but fair enough it is my opinion that people are being deceived into voting in the best interests of the super-rich based on the evidence I have read and trusted

:pope2:
because it feeds your own views,
 this mantra about certain sections of the electorate being deceived is generalised rubbish put forward by the losing side, it's the same voters who vote in govts, are they wrong then as well.The EU is not workable as the  super state it wants to be, it has been developed past it's original mandate by interfering "we know best " politicians of the Blair ilk.
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2020, 02:04:25 PM »

because it feeds your own views,
 this mantra about certain sections of the electorate being deceived is generalised rubbish put forward by the losing side, it's the same voters who vote in govts, are they wrong then as well.The EU is not workable as the  super state it wants to be, it has been developed past it's original mandate by interfering "we know best " politicians of the Blair ilk.

I agree with Dominic Cummings that the world is made up of a small number of outstandingly clever individuals and a mass of mediocrity. Most people are wrong about most things most of the time, and there is no such thing as the wisdom of the crowd. So the answer is to reshape things to allow  those with high IQ's to fulfill their potential in the sciences for the benefit of society as a whole.  More scientists and data-scientists are needed at the top and less people with Politics or Social Science degrees

However, I support Labour and membership of the EU as the best means by which naturally talented members of the working class can achieve their potential. Traditional Tories are all about the power of inherited wealth and priviledge, and that does not promote talent it suppresses it

I hope Cummings succeeds in re-shaping the Civil Service to rid it of excess bureacracy and empower genuinely talented scientifically minded people to run it properly...

So yeah enough of the masses are easily deceived by people like Dominic Cummings, Steve Bannon and the power of A.I. and data-science for mass manipulation. Those are the forces currently reshaping the world under the flag of "populism" whilst really looking after the best interests of the super-rich :alf:
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2020, 02:17:57 PM »

because it feeds your own views,
 this mantra about certain sections of the electorate being deceived is generalised rubbish put forward by the losing side, it's the same voters who vote in govts, are they wrong then as well.The EU is not workable as the  super state it wants to be, it has been developed past it's original mandate by interfering "we know best " politicians of the Blair ilk.

I actually agree with Dominic Cummings that the world is made up of an extremely small number of outstandingly clever individuals and a mass of mediocrity. Most people are wrong about most things most of the time, and there is no such thing as the wisdom of the crowd. So the answer is to reshape things to allow  those with high IQ's to fulfill their potential in the sciences for the benefit of society as a whole.  More scientists and data-scientists are needed at the top and less people with Politics or Social Science degrees

However, I support Labour and membership of the EU as the best means by which naturally talented members of the working class can achieve their potential. Traditional Tories are all about the power of inherited wealth and priviledge, and that does not promote talent it suppresses it

I kind of hope Cummings succeeds in re-shaping the Civil Service to rid it of excess bureacracy and empower genuinely talented scientifically minded people to run it properly...

So yeah enough of the masses are easily deceived by people like Dominic Cummings, Steve Bannon and the power of A.I. and data-science for mass manipulation. Those are the forces currently reshaping the world under the flag of "populism"

the traditional tory party died out with  thatcher and major,look at the heritage and ethnicity of some of the cabinet at present,(Gollum has just resigned), the old boys network will always exist but it is not what it was.
Change is constant but to suggest science all the answers, especially when dealing with human nature is wrong, the most intelligent computer in the world can be switched off by the thickest human.
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2020, 02:23:31 PM »

So if working class people vote Tory they were deceived into but if they Labour they've done so based on what?

Hypocrisy? Lies? Manipulation?

Tell us again how poverty is increasing all over the country (but miss out the bit about moving the goal posts of what is defined as poverty to suit your agenda).

Tell us again how our NHS wouldn't work without EU doctors and nurses (but miss out the bit about how if we had a reduction in EU patients we wouldn't need those EU doctors and nurses in the first place)

Tell us again how the EU was good for Teesside because they invested in some meaningless modern art aberration (but miss out the bit about how carbon taxes forced international companies to move their steal production and manufacturing out of Teesside)

Tell us again how mass migration is net positive for our country (but miss out anything about terrorism, drug dealing, prostitution and child sex trafficking and obviously Islamic rape gangs in every town and city in this country)

Enjoy 10 years of Boris, 5 more years of Trump and the continued decline of the globalist agenda.  :like:
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2020, 02:33:32 PM »

I didn't mention 90% of that Bob, it's your own agenda as usual. At least Jimmy debates the actual point...

My work here is done, so I'm off to join Dominic Cumming's band of data-scientists. See you on the new board :basil:
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2020, 06:03:30 PM »

Bye.
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2020, 06:12:58 PM »

I didn't mention 90% of that Bob, it's your own agenda as usual. At least Jimmy debates the actual point...

My work here is done, so I'm off to join Dominic Cumming's band of data-scientists. See you on the new board :basil:

Back to your ideological echo chamber (safe space) you go....
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